When the server brings over a highchair, I can tell you're wondering whether we're going to have an issue. And I understand that you don't go out to restaurants to listen to my kid. But at the same time, I don't intend to stop eating out. Serious Eats just published a poll about whether kids should be allowed in high-end restaurants, a question that simply exacerbates the issue.
Rather than pick sides, I think we just need some ground rules. If we can agree on these basic rules, then I'm fairly certain we can avoid your meal and my meal being ruined. You might recognize these rules from your local pool -- I've tried to adapt a code of conduct that we, as a society, have previously agreed upon.
5 to 6 p.m. is open swim. The first hour should be a mulligan. It's typically easier to feed kids earlier, and this leaves the rest of the evening to the general populace. We could even have a transitional half-hour from 6 to 6:30 p.m.
No running allowed. The table is home base and the home is where the family stays for the meal. Trips to the bathroom are fine, but otherwise we are all sitting in our seats for the duration of dinner.
Children under five must be supervised by a responsible person. I know the restaurant situations in which my daughter will be OK. There are some five-year-olds who can handle a dinner at the American and there are some 50-year-olds who can not. In exchange for a bit of trust, parents will agree to perform an honest personality litmus test on their children -- recognizing that even on a given night, the best kid can be poorly behaved.
Three whistles, clear the pool. If my table gets three strikes, we're out of there. Food on the ground -- we'll call this one the automatic strike -- a mild screaming fit, and talking to someone else's table are all examples. The potential list of fouls would be agreed upon before dinner commences.
A lifeguard will always be on duty. If I signal for the check, it's got to be ready. This is crucial because I can't leave until I pay and if it needs to happen quickly, this will take a bit of co-operation.
No iced coffees. Assuming we've had a great evening, I agree not to
push it. My wife and I refer to this as the "iced coffee" rule,
wherein we attempt to stop for iced coffee while driving home and discover that those seven minutes really did make the difference between a great day and everybody crying a little.
[Image courtesy of Katy Regnier]
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you people are assholes.
adults can and are often just as obnoxious as children.
for example, i hate that i have to sit a table next to smokers. the smell is disgusting. even worse when half a table gets up after their appetizer and after their dinners to smoke and come back in taking off their jackets dispelling that smell all over everyone else.
are you all really that upset by a child staring at you? just ignore that child. it's a kid. make a nasty face and make him or her cry and turn away if you want to. you're an adult, does it bruise your soul that a child finds your face interesting?
i don't think anyone should have any kinds of positive feelings about my kids. and when i eat out with them, i make sure they don't make problems for other customers. but having to put up with a couple of loud cries before i have a chance to take them outside, or having to look at their face, or seeing me fumble with a stroller - i don't see how any of that is a bother to you.
the blame lies with people who assume parents want their child to be oohed and aahed over. i don't give a shit about you and your family, i don't expect you to care about mine. i don't want special treatment, but just the same respect as everyone else. a table large enough for us to eat; privacy if nursing becomes necessary; leeway if one of them acts up while i get them out of the room.
i have yet to see these devil kids everyone seems to encounter all the time who are running around and throwing sugar on the floor and jupming onto other people's tables. and i used to work at a restaurant. some kids made a mess, but some adults made worse messes, so...
Dude, you're kidding yourself if you really think any 5-year-old can handle the American.
Ankle-biters have no business in anyplace fancier than a Noodles & Company. I have venomous hatred for any fucking moron stupid enough to take any creature under 16 to a fine-dining restaurant. Even if you can count on said child not to shit its pants and/or fling risotto across the dining room, the kid certainly can't begin to appreciate an entree costing $35 or the ambiance that the rest of the patrons are paying to experience.
Selfish parents with your heads twelve inches up your children's sweet little heinies, please realize that those of us without kids do so by choice, and your li'l dumplins aren't cute, charming, funny or in any way welcome in a restaurant without a separate menu heading that includes chicken nuggets and pepperoni pizza.
Leave them at home. You are ruining adults' good time -- but we all have to pretend it doesn't bother us. It does.
I am not opposed to taking kids out at all. Let's just all agree as adults that there are one or two places in town that are off limits. Places to get away from kids.
As a server, here are a few other ideas:
-Don't assume I know anything about kids. I am a bachelor. Telling me how many cups need lids, how many kids menus you need, who needs a booster chair, and when that menu has been turned into fine art instead of trash. You are the pro at keeping them cool, just let me know how to help.
-If your kid makes a mess, apologize. I would never think of letting you clean it up. I don't expect more of a tip to clean it. It is just a simple courtesy to acknowledge it.
-Don't complain to the server. If a kid is making a scene, I am already trapped between a rock and a hard place. I am not trying to get into a turf war between two tables. Get a manager involved, complaining to the server won't do anything.
-Let me know if you want the dessert. There is about a straight 50/50 split on this issue and both sides are adamant about their position. If I don't automatically bring out the free dessert with a kids meal I am not trying to rip you off. Every look at the face of a kid with Ice Cream in your hand as the parent scowls while telling you they are lactose intolerant? Some parents flip out if you just bring it to the table without asking. For this reason it is better to wait for you to let me know.
I think there's one thing that's seriously missing from this conversation: I'm not paying good money for any dining experience to endure someone else's bad behavior. This goes for staying in hotels, eating out, movie theaters, etc... and of course not limited to ill behaved children. The idea of having to move my table or complain to someone is a waste of my time. If it can't be resolved very quickly (I'm also talking about cell phone users), then I'm out of there, with a polite comment to the staff.
People of all ages seem to forget that when in public they are no longer in their family room or their private office. And for the several comments that feel the need to incorporate other diners into their child development: I'm not paying to teach your kids anything. I am eating out because I enjoy the pleasure of an ambiance and food I am unable to prepare at home, and to enjoy the (quiet) conversation with my companion.
And for the rest of the parents who commented here, thank you for raising your children with good behavior and without involving me or the other neighboring diners. There have been times when I have personally thanked parents for well behaved children, and I have thanked diners who step out of the restaurant to take their cell phone calls. Please know that your courtesy is greatly appreciated.
My dad took me out to dinner, at a Howard Johnson's from the time I was about 2 (we're talking the '60s here, ok? (-:). My brother was an infant and it gave my mom a little 'off' time after the baby was put to sleep. I was expected to behave and, I'm told, I did.
When my brother was 3-ish my parents decided try to take us all out to dinner at the HoJo's. My brother picked up his hotdog and threw it at a table of priests, hitting a Monsignor in the face.
My brother did not go out to a restaurant again until, roughly, our littlest sibling was 3, meaning he was 7 or 8.
At the time, of course, my parents were completely horrified and apologetic to all. Long term it made for a lesson on manners when outside the home, and a funny family story, especially the tag where my mom ran into the Monsignor 10 yrs later who asked her about her 'hotdog throwing son.'
One additional parental rule for going out with small humans: TIP GENEROUSLY.
Too many parents not only can't afford a babysitter, but they skimp on the tip despite being a bigger hassle and leaving bigger messes.
20%
If you can't afford it, don't go out. Seriously. The tip is part of the price of the meal, and when you skimp out on a tip, you make it so much harder for the rest of us parents.
The extra couple of dollars will mean more to your server than it will to you anyway.
@adr':
we used to live in Portland, OR, and down the street from us was a really good Brewpub with terrific food that did specifically have a completely separate eating area for families with children. LOVED that place! i wish there were more like it. the food was very good, and once we had a child, it became our go-to place for stress-free dining.
that said, things could get a little chaotic in the family section, as some parents apparently assumed that sitting in there was tantamount to permission to let their kids run completely amok. that really bugs the crap out of me. our son is two, and very active and mobile. yet it would never occur to us to let him wander around a restaurant at will. if he gets restless, one of us takes him outside to walk around. or we leave.
we very much adhere to the "rules" in the article. we learned quickly that you don't set yourself up for failure when it comes to eating out with a little one. if you can't get to a restautant by 6:00 p.m., you're better off just getting your food to go. frankly, it's too stressful to me to eat in a restaurant once i know my kid's hit the tired/cranky wall; i'll enjoy my meal far more if we take it home where he can run free.
as for the "three strikes" rule, we ask for boxes for our food after two violations. after two, you *know* three is coming, so why pretend otherwise?
I don't understand why commenters keep using the phrase "high-end restaurants" to describe the places where children need to show basic good manners. So, it's acceptable for kids to run around, kick the booth, and fuss if the restaurant has a Squishee machine rather than a sommelier? Parents should enforce basic good manners at the Four Seasons Grill Room, Chuck-E-Cheese, and their own dining rooms. Your child should be comfortable in a host of social situations from the informal to what is usually meant by the declasse "high-end" from a very early age; if he or she isn't, it's your fault.
I feel like we have all these restaurants out there with smoking sections that smoking is no longer permitted in. I wouldn't mind hearing "would you like family, grown-up or first available?" from the host.
I agree 100% that it is the PARENTS that are to blame for bad eating-out-with-kids experiences. Every child is going to have a bad day eating out every once in a while but not every parent responds appropriately, sadly, it seems that more and more parents DO NOT know what is and is not appropriate parenting in social situations:
If you let your kid stand up in his seat (and turn around and stare at me all evening- UGH!!)THAT is not appropriate.
If you let your kid scream and cry for an extended period of time without any attempt to take them outside for a cool-down...THAT is inappropriate.
If you let you kid run around unsupervised while you mindlessly chatter with your girlfriend and sip your margarita..THAT is inappropriate.
If you don't tell your older kids to TRY to eat with their mouths closed...THAT is inappropriate. Your kids will need to go on lunch dates with their bosses one day...really, NOW is the time to teach them to not eat like neanderthals.
If you leave your totally trashed and disgusting kid-yucked table for other diners to stare at after you are long gone....THAT is inappropriate. At least TRY to tidy up a little please! Chewed up and spit out chicken nuggets mixed with milk is no fun to look at.
I think if a family next to you is out of control it's not out of line to ask your server to have the manager talk to them, and if nothing changes ask to be moved to a different seat, and if there aren't any left try to get seated in the bar, and if that's not an option take it to go. Just don't be a jerk about it...unless you need to ;)
Two words: NO BOOTHs for children! As a degreed Culinarian with BOH & FOH experience and as a parent, I repeat - NO BOOTHS! It's just way too much real estate for the kiddo's to handle! Demand to be seated at a table unless you are at Fritz's which has very HARD booths that do not double as bounce houses.
FOH Servers & Staff:
1.If you are a child hater please tip out your host extra to NOT seat kids in your section.
2. Drop the kiddos ticket before the adults order & serve the kiddos first. Offer crackers & water with a lid if the parents are not packing their own. Remove and/or relocate the sugar caddy plus S/P shakers if necessary.
3. Be nice.
Parents:
1. Do not abdicate your parental responsibility to the host, server, etc. This is not free childcare and/or maid service for that matter. Do you let your children eat like pigs at home? Would you let your child empty & pour sugar packets on your dining room table?
2. Assume that your server has no childcare experience & have the server drop the kid's order first. Pack sippy cups & cherrios for the wee ones.
3. Tip 20% & follow the ground rules listed above.
Everyone: Check out dim sum at BoLings on the weekend and see whole families with children eating in peace. Train you kids to buffet at places like CiCi's.
My husband and I have taken our children out to dinner for YEARS! Since they were babies. We expected certain behavior from them. If they did not behave in the manner that we expected, my husband picked them up and took them to the car, allowing the rest of us to continue our meals in peace. Only happened once that I can recall, to our son, when he was about 3. We went to Culver's for a quick meal one night. It was crowded, so there wasn't a large table available for our family of 5. My husband and I sat at a booth with our youngest in a high chair--she was about 1, or maybe 2, making our other two 5 or 6 and 9 or 10. The elder two sat at a table across the way from us--there was another table in between our booth and their table. They ate their meal, politely conversing with each other. There was an older couple sitting behind them. As the couple got up to leave, they stopped and told my husband and I that our children were delightful. They didn't know they were there, and how nice it was that they could sit alone. Its all how you raise them and the expectations you place on them. We can, and do take them ANYWHERE--even when they were younger--including "fancy" restaurants. And, if there are children disrupting your meal, ask to speak to a manager of the restaurant. It is their job to see to the comfort of all their patrons.
Perhaps Jill and David ought to not go out before 6:30, as the author states, at least during the week. Our twins have been going out since they were two weeks old, and to a LOT of higher end restaurants. They've learned proper behavior. I only recently had an experience where we went with some parents of other children, and ours started picking up their "not bad but not stellar" behavior. Each one of the kids have been taken out of a restaurant once on two separate occasions (one of them was 6 weeks old). I'm not insinuating we raised angels, but their overall behavior is better than some boorish adults.
Our additionaal ground rules keep the kids out of "nicer" restaurants most Fridays and EVERY Saturday. A great article with some great rules.
i'm with David. yes, us parents want places to go w/out kids around. abe - we took a sabbatical from dining out for about a year or 2 when each of our children was at that "uncivilized" age range of 2-3. 8-9 years is absurd. if there are 8 year olds who are not restaurant-friendly then the parents are doing something seriously wrong.
As a server I can definitely see this from a different perspective. The problem is rarely with the kids, but often with the parents. Too often parents walk in the door and before you can even say "hello" they are demanding milk, crackers, and everything else. My job is to balance the needs of all of my guests. I understand the urgency the parent's feel, but I did not create the situation and all of my other guests should not suffer because Junior hasn't ate all day.
Child diners mean more trips for more random things, bigger messes, and a much smaller check. If parents acknowledge this extra hassle and have patience, servers are usually pretty cool.
I guess the question in my mind as a guest is whether or not it violates an unwritten rule to take your kids to The American. I am not a parent, but don't even parents want some places they can go and not have kids around? I don't think that parents should stop eating out as discussed earlier. I do feel that there are a couple of restaurants in town (American, Bluestem) that you should be able to go to and not have to deal with other people kids. I think parents should protect the kid free status of these places and they of all people should appreciate others doing the same.
It all starts at home. Don't serve kids meals on Disney-themed melamine plates and beverages from a plastic SpongeBob mug. My 5y/o twin boys use the same dishes, plates, and silverware that we do so it's not unfamiliar to them to see a white stoneware plate or a drinking glass placed in front of them. They've also never been to a fast-food joint so they don't assume they can run amok or play in a ball pit. Are they perfect on every outing? Certainly not. But we know their limits and don't try to stretch ours.
We teach our children table manners every day and enforce them. Sometimes my 5yr old will look at other people in a restaraunt and want to say hi, most people politely say hi back and he turns around. Anytime is a good time to teach kids to practice good manners and especially at a nice restaraunt. There are plenty of healthy choices ESPECIALLY at a nice restaraunt so that's crap. I prefer NOT to take my kids to McDonalds or some other low nutrition child friendly fast food joint. If you don't take them to where you want to go, because other people that don't have or like kids will be offended at the slightest trouble a child can cause, the kids will never learn to behave in those situations. It's trial and error and they do learn. I don't appreciate when people eating around us are obnoxiously loud or using foul language as their main source of conversation, so I move. But i don't expect anyone to change their personality or behavior for my eating benefit and I will continue to take my kids to eat out even if their natural curiosity draws them to look at other people or want to learn to use tongs on a salad bar. At least children can learn. Adults bad manners and obnoxious behavior while dining out on the other hand...are way worse than most kids I have seen. Don't get me wrong, when a kid is running past my booth repeatedly with no supervision for a good 10minutes, I will stick my foot out the next lap around....
If someone's child is disrupting my meal to such an extent that I feel the need to actually say something? I will ask for a different table. Or I'll have my food packed up and head on out the door myself. Fortunately, that's the rare situation, in my experience. But the problem is, the parents of children in cases like that just don't get it. And nothing will make them get it. So there's nothing you can do except try to make yourself more comfy by moving or leaving.
Here's a question � What am I allowed to say to the parent of a child who is breaking all these rules and doing everything to disrupt MY meal short of taking the food directly off my plate?
Because it's all well and fine to ask parents to be responsible for their brood, but you know there are times when things will run amok, and I don't really like, nor am I good with kids, and I need a way to politely ask the parents to get their kids away from my table before I say something I will regret.
Anyone got ideas?
"Parents should just take a sabbatical from eating out for 8-9 years"
^ Don't be daft.
This was a good article. It's common sense, really, but as a parent I abide by all these rules. It's pretty crazy to me what people allow their children to do @ restaurants.
Parents shouldn't be eating out with their young kids anyways. There's hardly anything healthy available when you go out to eat unless you get a salad or something else a kid isn't going to want to eat. Parents should just take a sabbatical from eating out for 8-9 years, unless you have a baby sitter for the night.
Yeah, I'd say that an age limit should definitely be self-imposed by resonsible, conscious parents when it comes to higher end restaurants, unless there's an event or something happening there that the whole family was invited to. In which case, a whole new set of rules applies!
Even I, the perpetual child-hater, understand that families go out to eat together now and then. Totally cool with that, since as a child, I often ate out at restaurants with my parents. My favorite was a step up from Denny's that was called JoJo's, where I ordered spaghetti every time we went, and thoroughly enjoyed every experience had there.
My twin and I didn't get taken out to the fancier places (like the Milliken/Feniger joints in LA called City and Border Grill) until we were at least 9 or 10. And that was a-ok with me!
jjskck, your story about what happened at Genghis Khan is disturbing. Good for you for saying something to the parents! GAH!
The problem is you're talking from the point of view of a responsible, conscious parent. Most offenders are not.
Addenda:
Kids must be forced to sit down in the booth. Standing up, turning around, and staring at me from the next booth over from behind their mac-'n'-cheese mustache is unacceptable.
Kids are never to be turned loose on a buffet/salad bar/self-serve display until they're old enough to handle it. It's mildly annoying when there are 8 people in line waiting for a kid to figure out how tongs work. It's infuriating when a little kid with no supervision sneezes all over a dish of wings and then puts the tongs in her mouth and returns them to the food dish, which happened the last time I was at Genghis Khan. Words were had (with the parents, of course).
And no 5-year-old can handle dinner at the American, nor should they have to.
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