A source recently shared a curious observation with us: When Mary Dudley testifies to her education in court, as Jackson County's chief medical examiner often must, she skips over the origin of her medical degree.
We requested a copy of her curriculum vitae (that's, like, Latin for "résumé"), and learned that Dudley got her M.D. in 1987 from the American University of the Caribbean.
The Caribbean islands are home to more than 20 offshore M.D. farms,
which causes some concern within the U.S. medical community. Jordan
Cohen, the president of the Association of American Medical Colleges
from 1994 to 2006, wrote in an April 2005 article, "We know precious
little about these schools but believe that they are, at best, highly
variable and, at worst, wholly inadequate."
Cohen may have just been salty that the island schools compete with AAMC institutions for students ... except that they don't. Caribbean med schools get a bad rap because some of them are known for enrolling students who couldn't get into more reputable
schools in the U.S. (Caribbean schools can also criticized for a lack of accreditation, which Dudley's alma mater has addressed.)
No one's saying Dudley isn't qualified for her position (at $230,006 a year). She received a master's degree in Community Health Services from the perfectly respectable University of Colorado at Denver, and she's worked as a medical examiner and forensic pathologist in three other cities since 1993. Also, her "patients" are already dead.
But just a note for the defense attorneys who might find themselves cross-examining Dudley in the future: Don't forget to ask her where she got her M.D. ... and if she knows where we can find a good pina colada.
Photo from JacksonGov.org
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I think Americans are some of the whiniest, uneducated brats I have ever come across in my life, and from the way this article reads, thanks to the author who seemingly did no research, some of the stupidest. How's that for stereotyping? How does it feel? What is the reason behind your article? To talk about how someone who graduated as a legitimate doctor in this country (whose medical license was granted BY THIS COUNTRY) 3 decades ago, should be discriminated against? On what grounds?
The truth of the matter is, the Caribbean Schools have half of their medical education (years 3 and 4 of medical school) IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Yes, that means that in years 3 and 4, when students rotate in American hospitals, they learn from AMERICAN DOCTORS. Therefore, ALL of their clinical training is AMERICAN. Also, they write the exact same exam (the one and only exam) that every doctor who wants to practice in America has to write - the USMLE. Every single doctor practicing today in the U.S.A., whether they came from a Caribbean school, an American school, an African school, an Indian school, or a European school - ALL WRITE THE SAME MEDICAL LICENSING EXAM. The Caribbean grads actually have a one-up on all of the other foreign graduates practicing in America because they get to go through half of medical school being taught in America, and know the health care system inside and out BEFORE they even write their licensing exams here. The doctors teaching them get to know them as well as they do their American counterparts - and often the Caribbean medical students are harder working, because they don't take the opportunity for granted, in some cases. These same doctors write their letters of recommendation - and RECOMMEND them for residency positions.
It really is a shame that uneducated people who are quick to jump on the bandwagon about Caribbean medical school and heighten mass hysteria should actually meet a Caribbean grad and see for yourself how qualified s/he is.
If you want to complain about Caribbean doctors who actually did 50% to 75% of their medical training in the United States, then you should also complain and whine about the doctors in your country that make up a massive percentage of the physician workforce in America (and who are needed because of shortages especially in recent years) - that come from all other areas of the globe.
Dermatologist, radiologists, competitive surgery residencies, anesthesiologists - to name a few - are filled by medical graduates from all around the world - and they all work in America. Even in England, the students go straight from high school to medical school. Do your research before you want to jump 100 feet in the air because a perfectly competent doctor from a perfectly acceptable medical school who makes a perfectly respectable salary - comes from the Caribbean.
Ms. Pflaum, it looks like all your years "studying" in an American institution like Loyola did nothing to teach you any research skills when writing an article - something I think you should have learned in an AMERICAN school. Funny, I went to medical school and it seems like my journalism skills already have trumped yours. Maybe someone should write an article about your incompetent reporting, and plaster your credentials all over the internet, and talk about how Loyola should be discredited for no good reason.
Maybe you should stop whining about the hard working doctors that serve the American community. Maybe you're just angry that people from all corners of the globe can come to America and practice medicine, and you were educated in America and cannot even write an article to save your life after attending an American school.
One day when you are in dire need of some medical help, or someone you know is, I hope you will eat your words when it is a Caribbean medical student who is saving your life or stitching you up. Ironic, you try to post a bogus article dismissing Caribbean medical graduates as uneducated, undeserving doctors, but they are the same ones to read your article and correct it in about 50 ways, offering YOU objective research like how American-educated doctors have the same if not more malpractice suits than foreign-trained doctors.
You couldn't prove anywhere that this Caribbean medical graduate you posted about (who should probably sue you for defamation) did anything illegal or wrong in practicing medicine in her thirty or so years, yet in a heartbeat a ton of Caribbean medical graduates pointed out your crappy reporting backed up with evidence.
difference between a low standard school and complete fraud. You know there are currently ND degree programs in the US like Albabama that require you to mail in and get your Doctor of Naturopathy...guess what in 14 States they have limited practicing rights. Also you are quoting an article from 1984...seriously? I'm not saying there shouldn't be regulations but there are reputable schools in the caribbean that produce fine physicians. Then there are those in the Caribbean and everywhere else that hand out diplomas like they are candy.
The training done in the Caribbean is two years of book work, after which you are required to take the same test that all US medical schools take, the USMLE. Our average on that test is higher than the US average, by 1%. So either we score higher because we are better, or the numerous low rate schools in the US bring the average down, it's likely a mix of both. Either way, if you have a bad doctor, it's more likely that he is a US graduate (by their sheer numbers alone).
I really wish the author would come down and visit us at AUC and actually witness the hard work and dedication that is required just to make it past the basic sciences. You're more likely to find us in the library on the weekends than the beach. Just the idea of wasting an entire day on the beach is unfathomable to the majority of us who dedicate every waking hour to our studies. Thanks for discrediting all of that with your poorly thought out "article".
ok ignore the other post i realized that was the incorrect county...but at least I admit my mistakes. So why did Dr. Dudley get her job in the first place, apparently Dr. Young who was the previous M.E. was 6 counties "questioned his expertise and ability to work with them". So basically he sucked at his job and wasn't professional.
http://www.kmbc.com/r/10462781...
Also he was a US med school grad - Loma Linda University
School of Medicine
http://www.heartlandforensic.c...
you should quit your job, you really stink at it. that was before Dr. Dudly took over office of Medical Examiner. At the time of this article the examiners were...
Edward H. Adelstein, M.D.
and Carl C. Stacy, M.D.
My reputable source not just another new article. At least my offshore diploma mill taught me how to use those!
http://www.sos.mo.gov/MOroster...
Dr. Adelstein - U.S. Medical Graduate
Medical School:
University Of Missouri--Columbia School Of Medicine
Columbia, MO, United States
Dr. Stacy - U.S. Medical Graduate
University Of Oklahoma College Of Medicine
Oklahoma City, OK, United States
Graduated: 1980
So maybe these schools are just diploma mills too? Please send me your commission for fixing this article as I think I deserve it way more than you. Also you proved how incompetent of a journalist you are with this rebuttal post showing 2 US Medical Graduates who missed 2 homicides (read the article if you will another case happened shortly before this one). Please please please refute this. (And I'm referring to the 4 Caribbean Schools American University of the Caribbean [AUC], Ross, SABA, and St. George's University [SGU].
wouldn't get another M.E. for less, that is going rate for forensic pathologist. Also they fail to mention this person did residency in the US, right with a bunch of US med school grads. Basically you think the American Government (moreover state governments) have no say in who gets a license to practice medicine? Caribbean grads take all the same classes, board exams, and do the same clinicals and residencies right with US students. Only difference is 2 yrs of school was on a tropical island not freezing their butts off.
Must have gotten your degree out of a box of cereal Nadia. Bother to do some research. I spent more time researching how to open that box of cereal (ie none) then you did. Bet you didnt know that the majority of US vets are graduates of a Carribean vet school. HEAVEN forbid. KCity, you guys can do better suggest you find a writer who is a graduate of a foreign school at least they might bother to fact check.
There is a big difference between AUC, SGU, Ross, and Saba compared to most of the other Caribbean schools. They have proper labs, proper staffing, vigorous testing, and create great physicians. There pass rates and raw scores on the USMLE beat most American medical schools. And now SGU has exclusive rights at a New York Hospital for clinical rotations. The fact is, these 4 schools have been reviewed by all the state boards that have their own review process and have been found to be equivalent to their own schools. Now, I cannot speak for the other Caribbean schools and there are definitely a collection whose graduates I probably would not trust, but blatantly dismissing medical graduates of an entire region is ignorant. And especially for the mistake of a couple of physicians out of the thousands of other mistakes from other American educated physicians. In addition, Caribbean medical graduates that successfully pass the medical licensing exam after learning pure book work must complete their actual medical education alongside all of the American students in American hospitals for 2 clinical and 4 residency years. The blatant stupidity and ignorance from the writer and some of the commentators is apparent in your teenage posts.
Nadia, the reporter, did such a poor job. She should be ashamed and made a complete fool of herself. Carib Schools are not easy at all, the students compete and beat US med school students.
I repeat, Nadia should be immediately dismissed from her job for such a poor research on the topic and reporting.
In light of the Truth, reporters like Nadia have no chance.
Is this for real? Have you ever met any of the med students at UMKC? Sure,there are some that are qualified, but there are many that I wouldn't let operate on a voodoo doll.
We should hardly criticize any other schools, American or abroad, when we churn out many half-ass docs from our local university.
What's the point of this article? The training at a Caribbean med school is exactly the same as in the US. Perhaps the author should look at the accomplishments of Caribbean MDs first before she writes such an ignorant article.
Chem II involves the use of THC products to relieve pain - any pain. The related lab course focuses on making nachos and other finger foods.
Dr. Welby, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thank you. I heard that the curriculum for Intro to Chemistry at the Carribean school includes making mixed drinks.
Listen, everything else being equal, would you want a family member operated on by a surgeon with a Carribean M.D. degree or a U.S. M.D. degree. Also, and notwithstanding the school, does it bother anyone that a "public servant" is making $230,000 per year.
MTSBWY
I don't see any mistakes in my post. i'll have you know I graduated with honors from a prestigious university in Grenada. i was magna cum allota, an english major with minors in blunt rolling and drunken college girls. Then again,I'm not in an occupation that could kill someone because I write like I'm 6 years old.
I'm doing 2 shows friday and saturday.
For the record, we take the same courses taught by U.S. professors and physicians and pass the same standardized tests, so unless Dr. Dudley did something wrong due to her lack of training, this has no substance.
Also, you might want to take a stroll through your local hospital so you can see just how many FMG/IMGs practice everyday without incident in the U.S.
Picking on someone's spelling to dismiss their argument before you have even considered its content is a great way to promote discussion. Stay classy, Dr. Welby.
P.S. I count at least 6 errors in your own posts.
lets just pick on the caribbean grads that have made mistakes? US med grads must never make mistakes!!! Well, except this guy right?
http://www.aolnews.com/crime/a...
DrWelby
AUC most recently had a 93% Step 1 pass rate with an average score of 217. 15% of those students got a 99 for a 2-digit score, and 50% of the students got a 90 or better for a 2-digit score. I personally know of 3 students who scored in the 250 range and could stand their own against any other medical student regardless of education. Go take a look at the AUC faculty list and you will see MDs, PhDs, and MD/PhDs from top-notch medical schools. Yes, we steal your professors when they get time off. In this trimester alone, I will have learned from 3 different professors from Dartmouth SOM.
I will agree with you that there are definitely some students that probably aren't best fit to be doctors, but they are weeded out or will run into trouble advancing to an MD degree. We probably didn't work as hard in undergrad and have lower MCAT scores, but in the end, we take the same licensing exams, compete for the same residency spots, and work alongside you in clinics and hospitals. We are here, and we are here to stay.
By the way, if you are going to be a grammar/spelling Nazi, you forgot an "e" on one of your words.
Dr B
You write like old people fuck. If you sir, are a product of some Caribbean Medical Diploma Mill, then I rest my case. Seriously, I haven't seen so many grammatical errors since I taught Adult Remedial Readin, Writin, and Cyphering at the Arkansas State school for Wobble Heads and Mouth Breathers. All snarkiness aside, if you are going to argue that your school is up to snuff, try using spell check. Not for nothing, but I hope you are on of those non life or death type Docs. The way you write, a guy could go in for an eye test and end up getting a Colonoscopy.
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.
Ms.Pflaum,
Why don't you come over to ValueMD.com- we would love to properly educate you on Medical Education! We'll play nice- we promise!
med etudiant.
hmmm...if i recall the MD that is charged in michael jackson's death is a grad from....AUC? NO, Ross? NO. lemme see...Meharry!!!! oh gosh that is a US school...and that guy...the one that found women on craigs list and then killed them...the craig's list killer...hmmm med student at SGU? nope. SMU? no...BU!!! that's it...BOSTON UNIVERSITY...that's in the US i believe...
and posting an article from 1984?? most people here were not born...bit old in your posting don't you think?
Re: Dr.Welby: Their are good and bad schools everywhere. Including the US see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
Do I need to pull up lists of US Medical Graduate Doc's who've had mishaps? A medical practice that several members of my family are in have had two Docs that have been sued -both of whom were US Grads- the one Caribbean grad has never been sued and has practiced for almost twice of long as anyone else in the group.
In the end it comes down to how good YOU are. Not where you went to school.
Kinda like journalism.
Dr. WelbyMD, great article you linked to the NY Times in your reference to Carib schools having poor track records � it was published in 1984!!!!!! It�s 2010, so how about you get with the current times instead of posting worthless crap from the 80�s. Yes us �nimrods� have a special interest in your bs that you clearly know nothing about. As an AUC student our �low standard school� has the same rigorous curriculum as any U.S. medical school. We take the EXACT same tests that all U.S. medical students have to take & have to pass. Our school is one of the few Caribbean medical schools that is recognized by all 50 states because we have met the same requirements every other medical school in the U.S. has met. As rokshana said, you truly learn to practice medicine in residency as well as our clinical years. We do our clinical rotations & residencies right alongside U.S. medical graduates at hospitals throughout the United States. Currently, the American medical education system fails to produce enough quality doctors to meet the needs of our country. Caribbean medical schools are doing their part to produce top doctors to help fight & treat illnesses like obesity & diabetes that plague our nation. So sure, I hope people ask me where I got my M.D. from. I�ll proudly say from the American University of the Caribbean. And to the author of the article wanting to know where you can find the best pina colada � I�d have to say Sunset Beach Bar. However for someone as ignorant as yourself, you might like one at a more high-class place like La Samanna or something ?.
When you write like this, you have to go to "da islands, mon," for your degree:
"AUC has produces plenty of excelent physicins some of which are on faculty in this little school called UCLA in plastic surgery." Thank you, Dr. B.
Listen, you can't "misdiagnose" a dead person, we get that. But you can send an innocent, living person to jail for life when (just for example) an M.E. doesn't know the difference between shaken baby syndrome and SIDS.
so the examiner made a mistake and you flame the whole FMG system? i guess you're the type of person that would only want a surgeon from harvard operating on you regardless of how proficient he is. likewise, you probably don't know anything about law since you went to a fairly bottom of the barrel law school. ignorant news blogger...
While I was at AUC, the path instructor was a Harvard grad. Meanwhile, students at the University of Missouri are being taught by an AUC grad (Dr. Dudley). If her education is so inferior, who received the better education? The people taught by a Harvard grad in the Caribbean or the US students taught by the Caribbean grad?
Dr Welby, you state that BrianB has a dog in this hunt, and you don't? Are you telling me there are no US grads that misdiagnosed someone or missed a vital piece of information? If so, you ignorance is sad. AUC has produces plenty of excelent physicins some of which are on faculty in this little school called UCLA in plastic surgery and this other hospital known as Massachussettes General as Rad-onc and many many others. Just like US school, caribbean schools produce good and bad and ulitmately it depends on a person if they will become a good, average or bad practitioner
There are good and bad schools in the caribbean. The writer has done absolutely no research to validate her assumptions.
and Dr. Welby comparing AUC to Spartan is like comparing Harvard to AUC. They are totally different leagues. You learned to google now learn to do some reading.
Sounds like Brian got a Tan and some beach time with his degree too. You might be right though Bri, maybe this isnt the story. Maybe the story is how is it this medical examiner missed 3 bullets in someones skull and pronounced he died of natural causes. You clearly have a dog in this hunt, or you wouldnt keep spouting the old "Medical School doesn't Matter" rhetoric. Of course it matters, otherwise they would just send people to do residency and skip the medical school part.
Dr. Welby, then why is the author not investigating Dr. Dudley's Graduate Medical Education in this piece? That is where you learn how to practice medicine. Answer: because that would not be a story.
The article I linked above was from Thursday, February 26, 2009.
Mary Dudley has been the Chief Medical Examiner in Jackson, Cass, Clay and Platte Counties since January 2007.
Also worth noting: she graduated from the American University of the Caribbean in 1987.
Caribbean schools have pretty poor track records. http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05...
I think that you comentors were too busy questioning the writers credentials to actually grasp the context of her post.
http://www.scutdoc.com/medical...
It's really not news that questionable degrees come out of these low standard schools. sounds like you nimrods have a special interest in this.
That article from Fox news was published before Dr. Dudley ever became medical examiner.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0...
February 09
KANSAS CITY, Mo. � Police and medical examiners who thought a man died of natural causes changed their minds after funeral-home workers found bullet holes in his head.
The Kansas City Star reported Thursday that three bullet wounds � two of them in Anthony Crockett's head � were noticed after the man's body was embalmed Friday. The funeral home returned the 49-year-old Kansas City man's body to the Jackson County medical examiner's office, and police counted the death as a homicide.
Hey Nadia, if you call yourself a journalist, then you are a failing one. It would have taken you an hour to research the medical education, training, and licensing processes. Since all of the commentators here are better journalists than you are apparently, we will do the work for you.
You would have learned that of the four years of medical school, the latter two are completed shoulder to shoulder with U.S. medical students in U.S. hospitals. Only the first 2 years of basic science are in the Caribbean.
The 3-10 years of graduate training are in US Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) residency programs, the same programs US Medical Grads are in.
You would have learned that licensing requires passing of the three steps of the United States Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE), same as US medical grads.
So Nadia, if you need some fantastic practicing physicians from across the country who graduated from a Caribbean school to help supplement your lacking journalism education, just let us know!
It's clear the author of this article has very little understanding of how the Medical Education system works - one does not simply pick up a diploma and earn the right and the privilege to practice Medicine. Students looking to practice in the US, regardless of their alma mater, take the same licensing exams and go through the same residencies.
Questioning the origin of Dr. Dudley's education is the theoretical equivalent of asking a college applicant where he learnt his ABCs - in the long run, i.e. at the stage Dr. Dudley's career is in, it doesn't matter. The ABCs are the same no matter where you are, they look the same, they are learned the same and they are taught the same.
"I, like, think that, you know, like, doctors should, like, have to come from American schools...you know? Right? Like, its just not fair, that she, like, makes so much more money than me."
What a joke of an article, this journalist obviously has no clue what she is writing about.
Really?! What is the point of this article? Has Dr. Dudley done anything wrong or is she simply being judged because she did, in fact, go to a well-regarded and officially recognized off-shore medical school that's produced thousands of practicing physicians. Had Ms. Pflaum done an ounce of research, she would have perhaps avoided writing such as one-sided, judgmental and obviously ignorant piece.
"curriculum vitae (that's, like, Latin for "r�m�" ... seriously? I have to question how old this woman actually is use 'like' here. Did they teach you that at the expensive school you went to in Chicago? Do us all a favour and learn the craft of writing and start writing pieces of actual substance. I can't believe you got paid for this rubbish! You see, it's not fun to be prematurely judged is it?
Clearly, this writer has no idea that this physician has gone through rigorous learning, examination and training from a med school that offers an education comparable to U.S. med schools, as well as the additional training of residency, etc. Many other physicians, U.S. med school faculty and others are also Caribbean med grads.
Perhaps this writer should learn a thing or two about the process of attaining a medical education in general before writing something like this.
well then, Dr. Dudley is in good company...since the Medical Examiner of NYC has a degree from a Caribbean Medical school as well....and to the writer of this article...exactly which school of journalism did you get YOUR degree from? It may come as a bit of a shock to you, but you don't really learn how to practice medicine in med school...its in residency...and i would imagine that Dr. Dudley did her pathology residency in the US.
Really? Wow, is this some inferiority complex that you have because you didn't get into the college you wanted to so you subliminally take it out on others? As stated above, what is the point of your article?
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